Arado 234 Blitz Bomber

The announcement of the Innovative and highly advanced for its time Arado 234 Blitz Bomber to be included in the under developed IL-2 Battle of Normandy, is聽Incredibly Awesome news. The Totally Immersive environment of IL-2 when played in VR, is without equal in All of the Flight Simulation Market. As a newly retired History Teacher an now an Aerospace Officer in the US Civil Air Patrol, I have always greatly admired the amazing Arado 234. Can you perhaps聽tease us all with ANY pictures of the聽Arado 234 Blitz Bomber under development here at IL-2?

1 hour ago, KJSimon said:

The announcement of the Innovative and highly advanced for its time Arado 234 Blitz Bomber to be included in the under developed IL-2 Battle of Normandy, is聽Incredibly Awesome news. The Totally Immersive environment of IL-2 when played in VR, is without equal in All of the Flight Simulation Market. As a newly retired History Teacher an now an Aerospace Officer in the US Civil Air Patrol, I have always greatly admired the amazing Arado 234. Can you perhaps聽tease us all with ANY pictures of the聽Arado 234 Blitz Bomber under development here at IL-2?

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Sure but you have to wait for a while. Its on the end of the list.

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https://stormbirds.blog/product-roadmaps/il-2-great-battles-roadmap/

If I remember pilot had a periscope to aim with rear cannons. Curious to see how it's going to be modeled.聽

I was so hard to aim with this periscope gunsight聽in 1946.聽

It's just too bad that so many people are going to squawk and complain about it being unfair to the allied players so it will hardly ever be seen in competitive online play. Just like the 262.

18 minutes ago, II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson said:

It's just too bad that so many people are going to squawk and complain about it being unfair to the allied players so it will hardly ever be seen in competitive online play. Just like the 262.

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I see Me262's online often enough. Rare but not too rare.

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In IL-2: 1946 we saw lots more of the Ar234 than the Me262 so I expect the same here. It's not quite as fast as the 262 (especially loaded with bombs)

is this new news?

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i thought we already knew about the jet bomber?

55 minutes ago, OrLoK said:

is this new news?

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i thought we already knew about the jet bomber?

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We know since November.

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4 hours ago, JG300_Faucon said:

If I remember pilot had a periscope to aim with rear cannons. Curious to see how it's going to be modeled.聽

I was so hard to aim with this periscope gunsight聽in 1946.聽

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Oh, so realistic then? ?

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I'm looking forward to only using the center bomb rack... (which should be possible the way this sim works). I remember modding Il-2 1946 to allow flying with just an SC500 or an SC250... instead of having to carry 1000-1500kg of bombs. Even with the limited modelling (hardpoints being the main source of drag etc.) the difference was enough to make it much easier to escape fighters. There was also a real pleasure to getting a single bomb on target (rather than a stick).

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I also hope they let us delete the rearward facing guns entirely (as was done historically to save weight).

That cockpit in VR tho...

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1 hour ago, CUJO_1970 said:

That cockpit in VR tho...

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I bet in VR, if you look behind you, you will see Chewy!

6 hours ago, JG300_Faucon said:

If I remember pilot had a periscope to aim with rear cannons. Curious to see how it's going to be modeled.聽

I was so hard to aim with this periscope gunsight聽in 1946.聽

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2 hours ago, Avimimus said:

I also hope they let us delete the rearward facing guns entirely (as was done historically to save weight).

The Ar234B didn't have any rear firing cannons. They were suppose to be on the Ar234C.

17 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

The Ar234B didn't have any rear firing cannons. They were suppose to be on the Ar234C.

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Any citation/source for this? Every source I've read has stated that some, but not all, Ar-234B-2 carried the rearward firing guns.

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Note: Some Arado Ar-234C variants were planned to have fixed forward firing 20mm cannons, as were the armed recon studies leading up聽to the Ar-234. I've also heard rumours of a WB-151 fitted to the central bomb rack of a couple of聽Ar-234B but I've not seen any compelling evidence for it.

18 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

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The Ar234B didn't have any rear firing cannons. They were suppose to be on the Ar234C.

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Nope. They were already proposed for the B2, but as with the C never realized operationally. At least that is what I can gather from Smith&Creeks "Arado 234"聽and from Jan Horns "KG 76" publications. The original drawings for B2 from 11/44 attached.

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36 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

Note: Some Arado Ar-234C variants were planned to have fixed forward firing 20mm cannons, as were the armed recon studies leading up聽to the Ar-234. I've also heard rumours of a WB-151 fitted to the central bomb rack of a couple of聽Ar-234B but I've not seen any compelling evidence for it.

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Not sure if that is compelling evidence but iirc there is a number of publications saying Erich Sommer used an Ar234B with the WB-151 during his flights in Italy 1945, using it only once in anger against a F-5 on April 5 1945. This includes Manfred Griehl (Strahlflugzeug Arado Ar 234 Blitz, Stuttgart 2003, p.110) who often uses original documents. I think it is solid evidence for a limited use.

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Not exactly Normandy '44... but then, it is a collector's aircraft, and from a strictly historical perspective using the Ar234 in a Normandy module is quite liberal in and of itself.

Very interesting!! So it might actually be more accurate to ditch the periscope but give an option for a field mod with fixed forward firing guns?! Quite the surprise to me.

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This caused me to find this article:

https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2015/09/17/arado-ar-234b-2-nachtigall/

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As for the 'Collector plane' having an Italian field mod...

- With only about ~200 Ar-234 delivered and sometimes as few as ~20聽actually being operational at a given time, the fact that at least聽half a dozen Ar-234聽 carried a gun pod is actually significant. Maybe 1/35 chance of encountering an Ar-234 so equipped... (compared to a ~1/300 chance of encountering a LaGG-3 with the Sh-37?)

- It would make a very interesting aircraft to fight Mosquitoes with it (and to fight against it with Mosquitoes).

- It would potentially attract more purchases (good for everyone)

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So it really doesn't seem anywhere near as silly as I thought it was!

1 minute ago, Avimimus said:

Very interesting!! So it might actually be more accurate to ditch the periscope but give an option for a field mod with fixed forward firing guns?! Quite the surprise to me.

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This caused me to find this article:

https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2015/09/17/arado-ar-234b-2-nachtigall/

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As for the 'Collector plane' having an Italian field mod...

- With only about ~200 Ar-234 delivered and sometimes as few as ~20聽actually being operational at a given time, the fact that at least聽half a dozen Ar-234聽 carried a gun pod is actually significant. Maybe 1/35 chance of encountering an Ar-234 so equipped... (compared to a ~1/300 chance of encountering a LaGG-3 with the Sh-37?)

- It would make a very interesting aircraft to fight Mosquitoes with it (and to fight against it with Mosquitoes).

- It would potentially attract more purchases (good for everyone)

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So it really doesn't seem anywhere near as silly as I thought it was!

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Kurt Welter tested those for usage against Mosquitos in the night-fighter role in 11/44. But decided the Arado 234 was of no use because of the plexiglas cockpit producing too much optical distraction at night. A good source for Kdo. Welter (or formally 10./NJG 11) are these two publications by Andreas Zapf:

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Just to clarify: Sommer's Ar234 was not a night fighter or anything. It was a regular Ar234B2b that got a field mod in order to use the WB151/20. It seems it was a rather spontaneous action, especially the wording on the Revi sounds like that:

• "Auch ein Reflexvisier lie脽 sich auftreiben und wurde noch in der selben Nacht eingebaut [...] Nach Ende der Besprechung lie脽 er die Visieranlage f眉r den WB 151/20 kalibrieren" (loc.cit.) [Even a gunsight could be found somewhere and it was installed the same night [...] After the briefing he had the gunsight calibrated for the WB 151/20]

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I don't know how many Ar 234s got this mod, and you needed an extra gunsight, plus the effort to calibrate it. Also, Sommer was kind of a special character and this was his personal request. I can imagine there were others using the WB151 in that manner but I would not be surprised if it was rare.

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Anyway, it sure would be a very, very cool mod.

For those of you able to read german, here is a short聽article about this plane and the limited trials for fighter and night-fighter roles:

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More records survive than I'd expect!

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It is attractive to also think of a less cluttered cockpit with better visibility (I suspect the model will be based on the surviving example and have the instruments in the way though).

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I don't think there is any point to bother with the night fighter projects since they are out of scope and range for this game; even the day fighter projects seem beyond what a mod in game could do being often based on the C which we probably do not get anyway. The documentation of those projects is not bad at all.

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The thing is we would be lucky to get a Ar 234 B2, and if we want any forward mounted armament I think the WB 151/20 pod is our best chance. Not the B2/N with radar and not some C-variant with four engines, because I don't think they are on the table, but the plain B2 with a gun pod. And documentation for that is indeed not easy to find.

Wow, I'd never heard of that but that's kind of cool. Frankly, I'd be ok with the odd bonkers thing like that if it saw operational use. Of course multiplayer servers can choose to disable or enable as desired although I can see the drag of the pod being an issue anyways.

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I know the rear guns weren't likely fitted although we did get them in the IL-2 1946 version and that did offer up some great surprises to trailing fighters from time to time.

6 hours ago, FliegerAD said:

I don't think there is any point to bother with the night fighter projects since they are out of scope and range for this game; even the day fighter projects seem beyond what a mod in game could do being often based on the C which we probably do not get anyway. The documentation of those projects is not bad at all.

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The thing is we would be lucky to get a Ar 234 B2, and if we want any forward mounted armament I think the WB 151/20 pod is our best chance. Not the B2/N with radar and not some C-variant with four engines, because I don't think they are on the table, but the plain B2 with a gun pod. And documentation for that is indeed not easy to find.

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Yes, I would pay for a largely聽cosmetic inclusion of night fighter variants of various aircraft (FB.VI nightfighter conversion, 88C6b, 110G4, 190A6, 234B)... but it wouldn't be up to their standards.聽It wont' happen alas.

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But the B2 with the WB151 for day use isn't entirely impossible for them to do... it'd certainly help if a photo turned up or there was more information on the gunsight. I wouldn't be surprised if the WB151 couldn't be zeroed to work with聽Periskopvisier PV 1B (set in its forward looking mode)...?

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...anyway this all聽makes me desperately want to equip one of the lovely F5 skins that have been made for the P-38 and try to escape from an Ar-234... like, I now really want an F5 for some reason!

The Fixed guns were attached to the prototype but were seen almost completely useless due to their fixed nature and the odd movements the pilot would have to do to aim them (opposite to where his stick moved so to aim them down he'd have to pull up ect)

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The Periscope was kept as anyone whos played it in 1946 will know that the Ar 234 has terrible viability...in fact while I personally would like the challenge...trying to fly these things in formation is almost impossible.

On 5/31/2020 at 12:23 PM, II./SG.1-MarkWilhelmsson said:

It's just too bad that so many people are going to squawk and complain about it being unfair to the allied players so it will hardly ever be seen in competitive online play. Just like the 262.

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Exactly.

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Properly won't see it much in multiplayer, as it will suffer the same faith as the 262.

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10 hours ago, [=PzG=]-Southernbear said:

The Fixed guns were attached to the prototype but were seen almost completely useless due to their fixed nature and the odd movements the pilot would have to do to aim them (opposite to where his stick moved so to aim them down he'd have to pull up ect)

It would be very usefull against attacking AIs, as you wouldn't even have to aim, to hit them. That's how I killed an enemy fighter in old 1946, too, when I was flying the Arado one time.

15 hours ago, [=PzG=]-Southernbear said:

The Fixed guns were attached to the prototype but were seen almost completely useless due to their fixed nature and the odd movements the pilot would have to do to aim them (opposite to where his stick moved so to aim them down he'd have to pull up ect)

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The Periscope was kept as anyone whos played it in 1946 will know that the Ar 234 has terrible viability...in fact while I personally would like the challenge...trying to fly these things in formation is almost impossible.

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The engine overheating will be a bit more permissive in BoN and I suspect that we'll be able to reduce our bombload to only be carried on the central rack (e.g. 1xSC500). The result should be that the Ar-234 will be harder to catch than it was in '46.

I was just flipping through 'Winkle' Brown's聽"Wings of the Luftwaffe", and he mentions having to use the braking chute of the 234 only once in his test flights - but that it was equipped on both A & B models. It this going to be modeled into our representation and be user operable?聽

On 6/17/2020 at 3:12 AM, Avimimus said:

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The engine overheating will be a bit more permissive in BoN and I suspect that we'll be able to reduce our bombload to only be carried on the central rack (e.g. 1xSC500). The result should be that the Ar-234 will be harder to catch than it was in '46.

Well the Arado could do about 650 with the 2 250s and 1 1000Kg, with how IL-2 is as there is no Heavy bombers to escort and/or planes that require altitude in order to function correctly (currently to my knowledge only the P-47 falls into that category and even then you can still do things at 2-3k meters assuming you get the drop on people bellow you).

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As a result all you'd have to do is climb to 3-4k+ altitude and cruise at 650-700 and you'll get your bombs off just fine, once you have she can then cruise at ~750kph or higher if coming out of a dive and like the 262 your only threat then would be sneaky Tempest Mk Vs, P-51s and now the new Spitfire Mk.XIV Griffon who has chased you in/after a聽dive聽

What kind of bomb sight did the Ar 234 B-2 have throughout its history?聽

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In 1946, it only had the BZA bomb computer which automatically computes when to release. Refer to image below. This means no level bombing. Was there a level bombing sight?

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Wikipedia, however, mentions the 234 had the Lotfenrohr 7K which is an upgrade of the original Lotfe 7C version of bomb sights which we already have in IL2 in the He 111 and Ju 88 bombers.

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What was the improvements from Lotfe 7C to 7K? Did the Ar 234 really have this 7K and does that mean the 234 can level bomb?

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1 hour ago, =KG76=flyus747 said:

What kind of bomb sight did the Ar 234 B-2 have throughout its history?聽

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In 1946, it only had the BZA bomb computer which automatically computes when to release. Refer to image below. This means no level bombing. Was there a level bombing sight?

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Wikipedia, however, mentions the 234 had the Lotfenrohr 7K which is an upgrade of the original Lotfe 7C version of bomb sights which we already have in IL2 in the He 111 and Ju 88 bombers.

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What was the improvements from Lotfe 7C to 7K? Did the Ar 234 really have this 7K and does that mean the 234 can level bomb?

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Level bombing wasn't carried out at all by KG 76, because it was too hard for pilots to stay in formation - that is, they would have had to slow down, which then of course negated their biggest advantage, which of course was speed. There were also technical problems with the few planes that received at Lotfe bombsight, so in the end yes, they dive-bombed all of their targets.

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Wikipedia, as usual, is an unreliable source.

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6 hours ago, LukeFF said:

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Level bombing wasn't carried out at all by KG 76, because it was too hard for pilots to stay in formation - that is, they would have had to slow down, which then of course negated their biggest advantage, which of course was speed. There were also technical problems with the few planes that received at Lotfe bombsight, so in the end yes, they dive-bombed all of their targets.

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Wikipedia, as usual, is an unreliable source.

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For academic purposes yes, but for general information, it's not bad at all.

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What book is this from? I am interested in how they were used in operation vs how they were envisioned to be used. I was afraid they were only used once in that Remagen bridge attack.

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I know historically it was not used for level bomb but it isn't like IL2s design philosophy has always been historically consistent. What was meant to be used but never was used is still in game. I believe the 234 was originally a reconnaissance aircraft. So even if it wasn't used as a level bomber, the mention of the Lotfe alone suggests there was substantial steps to use it as a level bomber.

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It is interesting to note that while KG76 only used it for dive bombing, this passage mentions the inclusion of the Lotfe on the aircraft but no mention of the BZA.

On 6/1/2020 at 7:22 PM, sevenless said:

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F眉hrer 100kg?

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2 hours ago, =KG76=flyus747 said:

What book is this from?

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It's from Blitz Bombers.

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2 hours ago, =KG76=flyus747 said:

It is interesting to note that while KG76 only used it for dive bombing, this passage mentions the inclusion of the Lotfe on the aircraft but no mention of the BZA.

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There are some extracts from Allied intelligence notes about the dive-bombing sight as I recall, but they are later on in the book.

2 hours ago, LukeFF said:

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It's from Blitz Bombers.

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There are some extracts from Allied intelligence notes about the dive-bombing sight as I recall, but they are later on in the book.

Can you give me the full title?

Regarding possible fighter conversions, we picked through the references and the evidence for day fighter field-modification seems weaker. For the sake of ensuring everyone has the evidence (to avoid past statements being potentially misleading) I'm linking to the discussions below:

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5 hours ago, =KG76=flyus747 said:

Can you give me the full title?

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Blitz Bombers: Kampfgeschwader 76 and the Arado 234

On 10/9/2021 at 11:34 PM, LukeFF said:

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Level bombing wasn't carried out at all by KG 76, because it was too hard for pilots to stay in formation - that is, they would have had to slow down, which then of course negated their biggest advantage, which of course was speed. There were also technical problems with the few planes that received at Lotfe bombsight, so in the end yes, they dive-bombed all of their targets.

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Wikipedia, as usual, is an unreliable source.

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That doesn't answer the question though.

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What bomb sights did the Ar234 have? Plan to have?

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Were there other units (besides KG76) that flew the Ar234?

On 10/10/2021 at 6:36 AM, =KG76=flyus747 said:

Wikipedia, however, mentions the 234 had the Lotfenrohr 7K which is an upgrade of the original Lotfe 7C version of bomb sights which we already have in IL2 in the He 111 and Ju 88 bombers.

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The so called "source" given on Wikipedia for that claim links to the 1941 edition of the Lofte manual, which certainly doesn't mention the Ar 234.聽

4 minutes ago, 41Sqn_Skipper said:

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The so called "source" given on Wikipedia for that claim links to the 1941 edition of the Lofte manual, which certainly doesn't mention the Ar 234.聽

It doesn't surprise me that a Wikipedia source gets discredited so suddenly but the mere mention of it surely must mean there was some kind of a Lotfe on the 234 even if it's from Wikipedia.